In a general way how long does it take you to cut 80 acres of good crop alfalfa? How long to square bail it? Small bails? I need tractor time so I can estimate fuel, I know there are a lot of variables here but I just need to be close not exact. Thank you for the input.
Putting together my business plan for a loan I have a question
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Square 80 or lots of cut up fields? I average about 7.4 acres per hour cutting with a 12' header going 6.3.
Gonna make a big difference in fuel usage with a 7' bar versus a 14'
Gonna make a big difference in fuel usage with a 7' bar versus a 14'
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Welcome Scootsbs.
A lot of variables there new equipment or old used stuff. Are you just baling or picking up also. Do you rake in your area or just windrow. We sometimes ted two or three times. Are you using preservatives?
We cut with a 10 foot Discbine on an old JD 4020 probably 5 acres an hour .
Rake with single rotary rake another hour for 5 acres .
Bale with thrower wagons another 2.5 hour.
Then unload wagons another half hour each with four guys .
Now if you buy a Krone bigM 2 hours to cut 80 acres .
Lots of variables.
A lot of variables there new equipment or old used stuff. Are you just baling or picking up also. Do you rake in your area or just windrow. We sometimes ted two or three times. Are you using preservatives?
We cut with a 10 foot Discbine on an old JD 4020 probably 5 acres an hour .
Rake with single rotary rake another hour for 5 acres .
Bale with thrower wagons another 2.5 hour.
Then unload wagons another half hour each with four guys .
Now if you buy a Krone bigM 2 hours to cut 80 acres .
Lots of variables.
I knew I would get doubters I actually expected it. I grew up on a 12000 acre ranch and did hay and cows. I left the farm for college at 20 and ended up married with a good job in the city. Haying back then and haying now are way different the old timers here know this. I still have the farm blood and have always wanted to go back. Now I have my chance at 60. Thank you to those that answered best they could.
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Cutting with a 9' 3" discbine, 6.0 to 8.5 acres an hour is my average. Stack hit the nail on the head, field size and shape, that's why my APH vary. As far as SS bales, I average about 250 an hour, makes for nice consistent bales (important with an accumulator/grapple system I have). So with a two ton per acre crop verses 1 ton per acre, the acres per hour are definitely different.
Larry
Larry
One way to pre-empt the doubters would be to tell us a bit about yourself and your circumstances before asking your question. You would not approach a group of people sitting around a campfire and ask for advice about a business plan without first introducing yourself. Same with an internet forum. Give us something to work with rather than straight away asking a bald question with no context. Had you started with your second post you may well have received a different set of responses.
Roger
Roger
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891 Posts
If I can reinforce what "bool" said I came here about three years ago with much much less background and from a garden size farm operation compared to you. Have found some of the most helpful people with honest and dependable advice have ever here. I admit I am a newbie, still.
BTW, I was 63 when I found HayTalk. Welcome to Haytalk. Sure you have expertise you will be able to share. KT
BTW, I was 63 when I found HayTalk. Welcome to Haytalk. Sure you have expertise you will be able to share. KT
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202 Posts
Welcome to the forum.
I would tackle this a little differently. I am going to assume you have no equipment. I am also going to assume you don't have a huge budget and will be buying used lower capacity farm equipment. I could be wrong though. However, if you are going to do a viable and profitable business plan, starting with lower cost equipment would be necessary or you would need 500 acres of alfalfa to get a decent return on $300,000 in equipment. Having assumed all of that, I would suggest that you pick out a 9-10 foot DiscBine at $9000+, a V rake at $6000+, a tedderer at $5000+ and a good Small Square baler at $12000+ and a used 90 Horsepower tractor at $25000. Basically, pretend to build your equipment list and estimate your working times from the equuipment you will be using as a realistic estimate. Tractors have fuel consumption specs listed in various places, but TractorData.com has most of them in one spot. You will run the throttle full on mowing hay but maybe half throttle on raking hay and tedderering, then back to full throttle on baling hay. Balers also have a theoretical hourly bale limit listed in specs. So, you can estimate fuel consumption and bales per hou once you know your equipment. Of course, another thing that comes up is what equipment to get. Again, I would point to dealers in your area and get that kind of equipment because you will break down and need parts, even if you are a mechanic. Moving and transporting small squares has to be automoted now days so you must factor in an accumulator $15,000, a Grapple $6,000, a skid steer at $20,000 and a bunch of long wagons at $3000 but preferable to have goosenecks at 25+ feet at $10,000 each and a pickup to pull the goosenecks at $20,000+.
As I do a fair amount of Alfalfa, it does have some quirks to it that general grass hay making doesn't, mostly leaf retention and good color. Given that you are out West where things are arid and dry, you won't run into the same things I do, but maybe different things. An example is that I try to never rake or tedder alfalfa when it is dry, but I get dew in the morning to pull off that practice. You may not get dew and need to do things at night. Making a good Alflafa field is not just selecting good soil but prepping it and planting it and fertilizing it. You will have to pay someone to do that if you are starting with nothing and creating a new stand. Your seeding costs for Alfalfa which should be in your business plan is significant, but really significant, if you fail to get a good crop. Been there and done that.
If you average 75 bales per acre first cutting, 40/acre 2nd cutting and 20/acre 3rd cutting, that gives you a maximum amount of 135 bales per acre and gives you a maximum amount of 10,800 bales. Out west, that figure I am using might be way high, I don't know. I get a lot of rain and this is what I use. If you charge $10 a bale, $108,000 total revenue is the best case scenario on yield. I contend that you will need to spend $100,000 minimum to get the equipment to handle 80 acre field by yourself without hiring anything done. You will need probably more than 80 acres out west to pay for the equipment and a decent salary. If you amortize the cost of $100k over 7 years (a figure allowed by USDA) you would have a yearly payment of $20,000. That isn't insurmountable figure. However, your actual average annual yield is critical and something none of us can project. Most local USDA offices have a figure they use to estimate yields at the local level so I would recommend starting there or asking someone who may be your competitor in the area what they do. Alfalfa is intensive on water so make sure you have plenty of it. I actually do a projection every year and have been tuning them. I now expect a 15% loss on rain or other factors. USDA has some forms that you can use and that are accepted by banks to do your projections. We all hate the government until we need their help.
You are actually the second guy I have run into on the forum that is starting haymaking at 60 which is commended. At the same time, there are many at 60 getting out of it. No help left on the farm, equipment is worn out, land rents are outrageous, etc.. Cows and horses and livestock have to eat so we all can't get out of it.
Good luck and share some more so we can suggest better solutions. I want nothing more than to see you successfully make hay at a profit.
I would tackle this a little differently. I am going to assume you have no equipment. I am also going to assume you don't have a huge budget and will be buying used lower capacity farm equipment. I could be wrong though. However, if you are going to do a viable and profitable business plan, starting with lower cost equipment would be necessary or you would need 500 acres of alfalfa to get a decent return on $300,000 in equipment. Having assumed all of that, I would suggest that you pick out a 9-10 foot DiscBine at $9000+, a V rake at $6000+, a tedderer at $5000+ and a good Small Square baler at $12000+ and a used 90 Horsepower tractor at $25000. Basically, pretend to build your equipment list and estimate your working times from the equuipment you will be using as a realistic estimate. Tractors have fuel consumption specs listed in various places, but TractorData.com has most of them in one spot. You will run the throttle full on mowing hay but maybe half throttle on raking hay and tedderering, then back to full throttle on baling hay. Balers also have a theoretical hourly bale limit listed in specs. So, you can estimate fuel consumption and bales per hou once you know your equipment. Of course, another thing that comes up is what equipment to get. Again, I would point to dealers in your area and get that kind of equipment because you will break down and need parts, even if you are a mechanic. Moving and transporting small squares has to be automoted now days so you must factor in an accumulator $15,000, a Grapple $6,000, a skid steer at $20,000 and a bunch of long wagons at $3000 but preferable to have goosenecks at 25+ feet at $10,000 each and a pickup to pull the goosenecks at $20,000+.
As I do a fair amount of Alfalfa, it does have some quirks to it that general grass hay making doesn't, mostly leaf retention and good color. Given that you are out West where things are arid and dry, you won't run into the same things I do, but maybe different things. An example is that I try to never rake or tedder alfalfa when it is dry, but I get dew in the morning to pull off that practice. You may not get dew and need to do things at night. Making a good Alflafa field is not just selecting good soil but prepping it and planting it and fertilizing it. You will have to pay someone to do that if you are starting with nothing and creating a new stand. Your seeding costs for Alfalfa which should be in your business plan is significant, but really significant, if you fail to get a good crop. Been there and done that.
If you average 75 bales per acre first cutting, 40/acre 2nd cutting and 20/acre 3rd cutting, that gives you a maximum amount of 135 bales per acre and gives you a maximum amount of 10,800 bales. Out west, that figure I am using might be way high, I don't know. I get a lot of rain and this is what I use. If you charge $10 a bale, $108,000 total revenue is the best case scenario on yield. I contend that you will need to spend $100,000 minimum to get the equipment to handle 80 acre field by yourself without hiring anything done. You will need probably more than 80 acres out west to pay for the equipment and a decent salary. If you amortize the cost of $100k over 7 years (a figure allowed by USDA) you would have a yearly payment of $20,000. That isn't insurmountable figure. However, your actual average annual yield is critical and something none of us can project. Most local USDA offices have a figure they use to estimate yields at the local level so I would recommend starting there or asking someone who may be your competitor in the area what they do. Alfalfa is intensive on water so make sure you have plenty of it. I actually do a projection every year and have been tuning them. I now expect a 15% loss on rain or other factors. USDA has some forms that you can use and that are accepted by banks to do your projections. We all hate the government until we need their help.
You are actually the second guy I have run into on the forum that is starting haymaking at 60 which is commended. At the same time, there are many at 60 getting out of it. No help left on the farm, equipment is worn out, land rents are outrageous, etc.. Cows and horses and livestock have to eat so we all can't get out of it.
Good luck and share some more so we can suggest better solutions. I want nothing more than to see you successfully make hay at a profit.
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Having been down a very similar path in life I used all that excel spreadsheet education that college offered to make a tool that calculates/converts implement width and travel speed to acres per hour and gallons per hour by load to estimate for custom haying, my own expenses, and business plans. For example if I pull a 14' swing tongue swather at 4mph (that's probably the fastest speed that the unit I have could go through heavy alfalfa as long as the ground is smooth enough so allow it), in 1 hour I would travel 5280'/mile*4miles=21,120'. I derate that due to corners, turnarounds, transfer from 1 portion to the next, etc. depending on field(s) size shape, maybe by 10% or so. 21,120'*90%=19,008' cut. Considering the implement: 19,008' cut * 14' implement width = 266,112sqft cut. With 43,560sqft per acre: 266,112sqft/43,560sqft = 6.1 acres cut per hour and 80acres/6.1 acres per hour = 13.1 hours to cut 80 acres with that setup. Figure out how much the tractor you would use propelling itself and running the implement uses per hour and you can get gallons per hour for fuel costs. Setup the same formulas for tedding, raking, baling, bale pickup, and whatever operations you intend to do to get the bales to the point they are used or sold to get the total hours and total cost. For baling you will need an estimate of tons per acre and how heavy of bales you will make and add in the twine or net wrap cost per too. For a business plan add in all the inputs such as tilling and seeding if necessary, fertilizing per acre, spraying per acre, rent or loan payment per acre cost and such. If you get to the point where all the inputs less any pay for labor add up to just about no money in your pocket you have calculated correctly
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