I have been getting some nasty looking bales from my 575. I have tried to move the pins on the packer fork, bigger windrolls , chamber wedges, sharp knifes ground speed anything. I checked timing and the knotter timing was off the marks where 1 1/4 " out. I fixed that and the feeder forks are timed. Its like the twine on one side is just longer than the other. The cut side is clean cut its just the twine is longer. If I cut it off and hold it up to each other its 3-4" longer. I cant sell any of the bales need help.
yarnammurt
I had a problem like this on a 311 once, dog was broken clean off. Replaced it and took care of problem.
The NH 570 and 575 balers can have difficulty delivering good bale shape in some very dry conditions with long stalked material.
What is it you are baling, at what moisture content, and approximate relative humidity (at ground level)?
There you are 3 questions in one!
The string has no effective metering, just sufficient tension applied equally to the two strings to stop them unrolling and making a mess. The fact that one string is longer than the other is because one side of the bale is packed more than the other.
You have mentioned the plunger to knotter timing, and the feeder fork timing.
I am not clear of the timing you are referring to. Is it the right rotor to left rotor and left rotor to packer fork timing, or packer fork to plunger timing ?
The 575 has a pickup designed to slip. If the belt driving the pickup does not slip, the baler may be over feeding which is a cause of misshapen bales. Overfeeding delivers too much hay to the right side (cut side) of the bale. The right string is longer and the bale is banana shape with the middle of the right side bellied out.Here is a previous post on this issue
Posted 30 July 2014 - 09:29 AM
"I have had problems with banana baleson a NH 570 and tried many solutions.
But first check that you are not overfeeding the machine, overfeeding causes the bale to be overpacked on the right side (knife side). One cause of overfeeding is driving too fast. Another and the most common is lack of slippage on the pickup drive belt.
The pulley sheaves on the belt drive need to be shiny. New machines have paint in the sheaves and older machines can have rust there. Even after 35,000 bales there was a full coat of paint in the sheaves on my 570.
Ease the spring tension on the belt drive idler pulley (left side of machine) until the belt can slip. Instructions on the correct torque are in the manual but here goes
.
The 575 is designed to have slippage in the pickup rotation when under load with hay. Look on the left side of the baler (left and right is determined by standing behind the baler)
Before doing any thing carefully watch the smoothness of the pickup with the baler being turned by hand and listen for any components making contact that should not be, the most common is fingers on the guards.
On the left side there is a vee belt in a sheave behind the toothed cog that drives the knotters, and that goes down to another sheave that drives a shaft that crosses over to the right side of the baler.
There is an idler pulley riding behind the vee belt and tensioned by a spring (adjustable).
The pulley sheaves must be clear of rust and paint.
This belt is designed to slip to prevent overfeeding of hay up the pickup. Overfeeding will result in banana bales with too much material in the right side of the bale (cut side) and too little in the left side.
THe correct adjustment is between 15foot lbs and 20 foot lbs at the pickup, but 20 may be a little high.
How do you set this?
Put a bar (edge up) under the centre shaft of the pickup, (a flat bar will fit between the pickup guards) and over the top of one of the bars that the pickup fingers are on and under the centre shaft of the pickup.
Measure carefully from the centre bar out along the flat bar a distance of 34 inches. The best trick is to put a small notch in the edge of the flat bar so when it slips under the pickup centre shaft it locks into position, and you can thus have the 34 inch mark in place and similarly notched.
Put the hook of a spring balance in the 34 inch notch and get your trusty helper to turn the baler by hand. The belt should slip ie the pickup not rotate with the spring balance reading at least 53 lbs and no more than 69lbs.
Adjust spring tension on the idler pulley accordingly to bring the point of slippage into this range.
If there is not enough adjustment then make an extension link to add between the hook on the end of the spring and the idler pulley. I could not get slippage to polish the paint out without that extension and then had to tighten up the spring once the sheaves were polished metal.
The next thing to check is the packer fork setting. To pack more material in the left side, set the packer fork connecting rod in a lower hole of the packer fork. Moving this mounting point down packs more material in the left of the bale. If still not enough move the connecting rod to the right at the anchor point.
New Holland suggested adding another set of holes to the rear and 50% phased to the top of the packer fork, the effect of which is to lay the packer fork further back.This was fitted to another baler with success, see Youtube
This seems to be a fix for not enough material in the right side of the bale . it did not work for me as the problem for me was not enough on the left side.
REMEMBER that the timing of packer fork to plunger Must be checked whenever the anchor/connection points are changed.
As a further modification I added another rotor teardrop on the rotor shaft immediately before the packer fork, such that this shaft then carried three teardrops. The extra teardrop was added to the rear of the shaft with a woodruff key installation the same as the original. The reason I did this was to provide extra support to the volume of hay being moved by this rotor, there being about 9 inches of material behind the standard rotor teardrop There is room to clear the rear of the bodywork and the packer fork.
This helped more than any other modification, including the left hand feeder wedge and the long/ short grass hay wedge"
NH provided the same solution to me as that shown on the YouTube clip but it was no help at all.
The packer fork has 9 possible settings and is the next set of adjustments after the pickup slip is adjusted to correct banana shape. The aim is to pack more hay into the left side and less into the right/cut side. There are 3 hole sets in the packer fork and 3 sets on the anchor point.
Whenever the packer fork throw is adjusted, check the packer fork to plunger timing to make sure the forks still clear the plunger. Turn the baler by hand and watch the packer fork/plunger clearance.
To increase the amount of hay packed into the left side of the chamber, place the pin in the lowest of the 3 holes in the packer fork. this pushes the packer fork further into the chamber and thus more hay to the left. This seems counter intuitive because the first thought is to adjust the packer fok the other way to reach further back and grab more hay. The local NH techs tried this and the bales exploded on coming out of the chute the shape was so bad.
If there is still insufficient hay in the left, place the anchor pin to the right hole in the set of holes mounted on the baler, the hole set closest the centre of the baler.
Failing that there are two optional wedges to fit in the pickup area. Strangely in an early handbook one of the wedges is described as a "long grass wedge" and in later editions as a "short grass wedge". If you are not confused I sure am.
The best of these is the left hand hay wedge a wedge shape in the floor of the transfer area just to the left of the left rotor, the action of which is to lift the hay a little higher for the packer forks to grab.
In exceptional circumstances referred to above the rotors and packer fork break a truck in the hay and will not pack enough to the left side. My understanding is that Arkansas has a hot but humid climate so excessive dry down should not be an issue. However with extreme hot, dry conditions I found that an extra rotor arm on the left rotor set helped reduce banana shape. That addition takes some setting up and machining of a woodruff keyway.
What is it you are baling, at what moisture content, and approximate relative humidity (at ground level)?
There you are 3 questions in one!
The string has no effective metering, just sufficient tension applied equally to the two strings to stop them unrolling and making a mess. The fact that one string is longer than the other is because one side of the bale is packed more than the other.
You have mentioned the plunger to knotter timing, and the feeder fork timing.
I am not clear of the timing you are referring to. Is it the right rotor to left rotor and left rotor to packer fork timing, or packer fork to plunger timing ?
The 575 has a pickup designed to slip. If the belt driving the pickup does not slip, the baler may be over feeding which is a cause of misshapen bales. Overfeeding delivers too much hay to the right side (cut side) of the bale. The right string is longer and the bale is banana shape with the middle of the right side bellied out.Here is a previous post on this issue
Posted 30 July 2014 - 09:29 AM
"I have had problems with banana baleson a NH 570 and tried many solutions.
But first check that you are not overfeeding the machine, overfeeding causes the bale to be overpacked on the right side (knife side). One cause of overfeeding is driving too fast. Another and the most common is lack of slippage on the pickup drive belt.
The pulley sheaves on the belt drive need to be shiny. New machines have paint in the sheaves and older machines can have rust there. Even after 35,000 bales there was a full coat of paint in the sheaves on my 570.
Ease the spring tension on the belt drive idler pulley (left side of machine) until the belt can slip. Instructions on the correct torque are in the manual but here goes
.The 575 is designed to have slippage in the pickup rotation when under load with hay. Look on the left side of the baler (left and right is determined by standing behind the baler)
Before doing any thing carefully watch the smoothness of the pickup with the baler being turned by hand and listen for any components making contact that should not be, the most common is fingers on the guards.
On the left side there is a vee belt in a sheave behind the toothed cog that drives the knotters, and that goes down to another sheave that drives a shaft that crosses over to the right side of the baler.
There is an idler pulley riding behind the vee belt and tensioned by a spring (adjustable).
The pulley sheaves must be clear of rust and paint.
This belt is designed to slip to prevent overfeeding of hay up the pickup. Overfeeding will result in banana bales with too much material in the right side of the bale (cut side) and too little in the left side.
THe correct adjustment is between 15foot lbs and 20 foot lbs at the pickup, but 20 may be a little high.
How do you set this?
Put a bar (edge up) under the centre shaft of the pickup, (a flat bar will fit between the pickup guards) and over the top of one of the bars that the pickup fingers are on and under the centre shaft of the pickup.
Measure carefully from the centre bar out along the flat bar a distance of 34 inches. The best trick is to put a small notch in the edge of the flat bar so when it slips under the pickup centre shaft it locks into position, and you can thus have the 34 inch mark in place and similarly notched.
Put the hook of a spring balance in the 34 inch notch and get your trusty helper to turn the baler by hand. The belt should slip ie the pickup not rotate with the spring balance reading at least 53 lbs and no more than 69lbs.
Adjust spring tension on the idler pulley accordingly to bring the point of slippage into this range.
If there is not enough adjustment then make an extension link to add between the hook on the end of the spring and the idler pulley. I could not get slippage to polish the paint out without that extension and then had to tighten up the spring once the sheaves were polished metal.
The next thing to check is the packer fork setting. To pack more material in the left side, set the packer fork connecting rod in a lower hole of the packer fork. Moving this mounting point down packs more material in the left of the bale. If still not enough move the connecting rod to the right at the anchor point.
New Holland suggested adding another set of holes to the rear and 50% phased to the top of the packer fork, the effect of which is to lay the packer fork further back.This was fitted to another baler with success, see Youtube
This seems to be a fix for not enough material in the right side of the bale . it did not work for me as the problem for me was not enough on the left side.
REMEMBER that the timing of packer fork to plunger Must be checked whenever the anchor/connection points are changed.
As a further modification I added another rotor teardrop on the rotor shaft immediately before the packer fork, such that this shaft then carried three teardrops. The extra teardrop was added to the rear of the shaft with a woodruff key installation the same as the original. The reason I did this was to provide extra support to the volume of hay being moved by this rotor, there being about 9 inches of material behind the standard rotor teardrop There is room to clear the rear of the bodywork and the packer fork.
This helped more than any other modification, including the left hand feeder wedge and the long/ short grass hay wedge"
NH provided the same solution to me as that shown on the YouTube clip but it was no help at all.
The packer fork has 9 possible settings and is the next set of adjustments after the pickup slip is adjusted to correct banana shape. The aim is to pack more hay into the left side and less into the right/cut side. There are 3 hole sets in the packer fork and 3 sets on the anchor point.
Whenever the packer fork throw is adjusted, check the packer fork to plunger timing to make sure the forks still clear the plunger. Turn the baler by hand and watch the packer fork/plunger clearance.
To increase the amount of hay packed into the left side of the chamber, place the pin in the lowest of the 3 holes in the packer fork. this pushes the packer fork further into the chamber and thus more hay to the left. This seems counter intuitive because the first thought is to adjust the packer fok the other way to reach further back and grab more hay. The local NH techs tried this and the bales exploded on coming out of the chute the shape was so bad.
If there is still insufficient hay in the left, place the anchor pin to the right hole in the set of holes mounted on the baler, the hole set closest the centre of the baler.
Failing that there are two optional wedges to fit in the pickup area. Strangely in an early handbook one of the wedges is described as a "long grass wedge" and in later editions as a "short grass wedge". If you are not confused I sure am.
The best of these is the left hand hay wedge a wedge shape in the floor of the transfer area just to the left of the left rotor, the action of which is to lift the hay a little higher for the packer forks to grab.
In exceptional circumstances referred to above the rotors and packer fork break a truck in the hay and will not pack enough to the left side. My understanding is that Arkansas has a hot but humid climate so excessive dry down should not be an issue. However with extreme hot, dry conditions I found that an extra rotor arm on the left rotor set helped reduce banana shape. That addition takes some setting up and machining of a woodruff keyway.
I'm not trying to be a smart Alec but have you considered trading your 575 for a JD sq baler or an inline baler?? Several yrs back I had 2 different people bale some hay that both had a NH 565. That's what prompted me to buy a JD 347 baler
Jim, I think we've been over this before. A 565 and a 575 aren't even related. Their mechanisms to fill the chamber are completely different. The 565 is pretty much a 316. The 575 is a beast. That said, I'm baffled as to the problem here. I've never had anything like this with my NH.
Yarnamurt, did you try any of the things that coondle suggested? Also, bale skiis do serve a purpose but that purpose is not balancing banana bales.
My only suggestion (beyond what has already been suggested by coondle) would be to clean out your chamber completely to see if there is any material hung up that might be adversely affecting the formation and travel of the bales. I've never personally experienced this but it has come up here on haytalk before, usually with straw. I've never touched or seen Bahia so I have no idea if they share any characteristics. Good luck.
Upon rereading this thread, you really need to fix the bad hay dog. If it's non-functional on the left side, it could be contributing to your not getting enough hay there.
I would agree - before I made any more adjustments or repairs, I'd fix the hay dog and give it a try. Also - IMHO, don't rely on hand feeding the baler. Make a windrow and drive the baler into it.
Good luck,
Bill
Hay dog is ordered, I have tried all of it. I have cleaned it out twice today and all good. I have watched it cycle while my son baled. Everything seams to be working fine. Now I did run it slow and stand up on the tire with it sitting and running and hay him throw in hay. And I can see that it is not feeding over to the left side. I am going to put some 4-5" wide windrolls together and see what happens. Big enough to flat fill it up.
I understand your frustration but they're not going to help you get more hay in the left side of the chamber.
Here's one more idea to try: do the exact opposite of what the book says about adjusting the packer fork pivots. The book is for common conditions. You may have something that is not common.
Also, you could pull the dog from the right and move it to the left. It might help until you get the new one.
And, as Bill mentioned, hand feeding a baler (especially a high capacity model and especially at low rpms) will almost guarantee that you won't have enough material to fill the left side. Field test or bust.
That sounds kind of far apart but it would depend on whether you have enough ground speed to keep the baler fed in light conditions. How many flakes are in those bales and how long are they?
60' is pretty light rows. I agree with coondle and hitech, fix the dog, adjust packer fork and add that light crop wedge.
The role of hay dogs was covered in July in the thread
Hayliner S68 Banana Bale trouble
I can tell you from personal experience that if you cannot get a reasonable shaped bale because of the condition of the hay that a JD baler will not deliver a perfect bale. Banana shape will not be as bad but still present. A JD 348 will not bale as fast as a NH 570 and definitely nowhere near a 575.
How do I know?
I now have a 348 after a 570 and if not reducing my hay production and giving up custom work I would need a second baler to put out what my 570 did, so do not rush into changing machines.
Have you checked the slippage on the pickup drive?
When baling at full tilt i.e. 450 or more bales per hour with 12/13 slices per bale, look carefully and the hay travelling up the pickup should pause for a moment on each stroke.
This is a cause of overfeeding as NH put it, not necessarily too much hay in total but the feed rate is not at a rate to suit the smooth delivery by the rotors.
Another possible source of uneven packing by the packer fork is the packer fork adjusting link itself.
Is the link the correct length?
The link should measure 23 7/8 inches between the pins (centre to centre).
Is the link bent?
If the link is bent that will alter the throw of the packer fork, affecting the bale shape.
Is the spring on the packer fork adjusting link broken or weak?
That will affect packer fork performance.
At last this old dumb guy has caught on to your term "rolls".
I know them as windrows but no matter the name.
I also have no experience with bahia but from Mr Google it appears it would only give relatively light windrows.
One feature of a 575 is its ability to gobble hay and it has a very wide pickup to help in that.It will swallow hay like few other balers can.
In light hay supply, the ground speed may not be great enough to satisfy a hungry baler. Increasing ground speed becomes counter-productive when ground speed approaches or exceeds pickup tine speed. The baler simply knocks the light hay ahead of the pickup and does not feed it into the rotors.
Insufficient hay supply to the 575 will give poor bale shape, with any of the following issues present:
inconsistent bale length (usually shorter than when fully fed);
not enough hay in the top of the bale because the chamber is not being filled to the top (partly counteracted by the grass hay wedge);
and banana bales become a possibility.
How is that banana bales can be formed you may ask?
The packer forks not being full of hay when delivering the hay to the chamber do not have enough volume to push the charge of hay hard up against the left wall of the chamber. A full load on the packer fork is pushed hard against the left wall and then compressed into the bale chute. Adjusting the throw on the packer fork for the placement of the charge in the chamber, only evens out the lateral density of a full charge to allow even quantity of hay across each slice. Even quantity across each slice gives straight bales.
So critical elements in bale shape for a 575 are in order of adjustment, (not in importance)
Knotter to plunger timing,
Packer fork to plunger timing,
Left rotor to packer fork timing,
Centre rotor to left rotor timing,
Right rotor to centre rotor timing,
Slippage on the pickup drive belt,
(I had to extend the available adjustment on the drive belt tensioner by fabricating a link to get the torque value to specification),
Set packer fork adjusting link to suit the hay type/feed rate,
All of that assuming hay dogs, bale case extension, bale tension (hydraulic/air) and bale doors if present and wedges are properly set up.
Frustrating time but good luck.
Hayliner S68 Banana Bale trouble
I can tell you from personal experience that if you cannot get a reasonable shaped bale because of the condition of the hay that a JD baler will not deliver a perfect bale. Banana shape will not be as bad but still present. A JD 348 will not bale as fast as a NH 570 and definitely nowhere near a 575.
How do I know?
I now have a 348 after a 570 and if not reducing my hay production and giving up custom work I would need a second baler to put out what my 570 did, so do not rush into changing machines.
Have you checked the slippage on the pickup drive?
When baling at full tilt i.e. 450 or more bales per hour with 12/13 slices per bale, look carefully and the hay travelling up the pickup should pause for a moment on each stroke.
This is a cause of overfeeding as NH put it, not necessarily too much hay in total but the feed rate is not at a rate to suit the smooth delivery by the rotors.
Another possible source of uneven packing by the packer fork is the packer fork adjusting link itself.
Is the link the correct length?
The link should measure 23 7/8 inches between the pins (centre to centre).
Is the link bent?
If the link is bent that will alter the throw of the packer fork, affecting the bale shape.
Is the spring on the packer fork adjusting link broken or weak?
That will affect packer fork performance.
At last this old dumb guy has caught on to your term "rolls".
I know them as windrows but no matter the name.
I also have no experience with bahia but from Mr Google it appears it would only give relatively light windrows.
One feature of a 575 is its ability to gobble hay and it has a very wide pickup to help in that.It will swallow hay like few other balers can.
In light hay supply, the ground speed may not be great enough to satisfy a hungry baler. Increasing ground speed becomes counter-productive when ground speed approaches or exceeds pickup tine speed. The baler simply knocks the light hay ahead of the pickup and does not feed it into the rotors.
Insufficient hay supply to the 575 will give poor bale shape, with any of the following issues present:
inconsistent bale length (usually shorter than when fully fed);
not enough hay in the top of the bale because the chamber is not being filled to the top (partly counteracted by the grass hay wedge);
and banana bales become a possibility.
How is that banana bales can be formed you may ask?
The packer forks not being full of hay when delivering the hay to the chamber do not have enough volume to push the charge of hay hard up against the left wall of the chamber. A full load on the packer fork is pushed hard against the left wall and then compressed into the bale chute. Adjusting the throw on the packer fork for the placement of the charge in the chamber, only evens out the lateral density of a full charge to allow even quantity of hay across each slice. Even quantity across each slice gives straight bales.
So critical elements in bale shape for a 575 are in order of adjustment, (not in importance)
Knotter to plunger timing,
Packer fork to plunger timing,
Left rotor to packer fork timing,
Centre rotor to left rotor timing,
Right rotor to centre rotor timing,
Slippage on the pickup drive belt,
(I had to extend the available adjustment on the drive belt tensioner by fabricating a link to get the torque value to specification),
Set packer fork adjusting link to suit the hay type/feed rate,
All of that assuming hay dogs, bale case extension, bale tension (hydraulic/air) and bale doors if present and wedges are properly set up.
Frustrating time but good luck.
The post about bales 60 feet apart came in while these old blind eyes and fat fingers were hunting and picking on the keyboard like a chook looking for wheat grains
It is really a question of how many slices are present in each bale, not how far apart they are. The physics of most balers (Freeman seems an exception), means bale shape suffers once the number of slices falls below 12 per bale. Consistency of length suffers badly too. Odd length banana shaped bales become a possibility, if not certainty.
Baling in reasonably heavy windrows at about 3 miles per hour with my 570, I would get a bale drop when the front tractor wheel was nearly coming up to a bale in the adjacent windrow, delivering around 200+ of 55 to 60 lb bales per acre on a 10 foot cut from a NH 1411. Baling an average 250 bales per acre , I would have to drop to around 1.9 mph baling behind the same cutter. Above those speeds at the bales per acre and the baler met its limit with the packer fork banging on the top adjusting link spring.
My view:
Even at 60 feet between bales, if travelling really fast then you may be getting beyond the optimum capacity of the baler and have fewer than 12 slices per bale.
How many slices are in the bales produced?
Below 12 see comments above.
Twenty or more and the baler is not being fed anywhere near enough. See comments in my previous post.
Try the low tech method and count the strokes while baling, or lash out for high tech, like some, and get a stroke counter.
Almost the last option for me.
Please carefully examine the bales produced, looking particularly on the vertical end faces.
Can you see a portion of hay under the right string that has a cut line from the baler's knife , that does not extend under the left string?
This will most likely be present on the face of the bale to last leave the baler.
The orientation of left and right string is taken assuming you are standing behind the baler looking forward.
It is really a question of how many slices are present in each bale, not how far apart they are. The physics of most balers (Freeman seems an exception), means bale shape suffers once the number of slices falls below 12 per bale. Consistency of length suffers badly too. Odd length banana shaped bales become a possibility, if not certainty.
Baling in reasonably heavy windrows at about 3 miles per hour with my 570, I would get a bale drop when the front tractor wheel was nearly coming up to a bale in the adjacent windrow, delivering around 200+ of 55 to 60 lb bales per acre on a 10 foot cut from a NH 1411. Baling an average 250 bales per acre , I would have to drop to around 1.9 mph baling behind the same cutter. Above those speeds at the bales per acre and the baler met its limit with the packer fork banging on the top adjusting link spring.
My view:
Even at 60 feet between bales, if travelling really fast then you may be getting beyond the optimum capacity of the baler and have fewer than 12 slices per bale.
How many slices are in the bales produced?
Below 12 see comments above.
Twenty or more and the baler is not being fed anywhere near enough. See comments in my previous post.
Try the low tech method and count the strokes while baling, or lash out for high tech, like some, and get a stroke counter.
Almost the last option for me.
Please carefully examine the bales produced, looking particularly on the vertical end faces.
Can you see a portion of hay under the right string that has a cut line from the baler's knife , that does not extend under the left string?
This will most likely be present on the face of the bale to last leave the baler.
The orientation of left and right string is taken assuming you are standing behind the baler looking forward.
Much like coondle, I like to put enough hay in a windrow to bale around 2 to 2.5 mph and and get bales around 13 flakes. It sounds like you could double the amount of hay per windrow and still be well within your baler's capacity. Need a bigger rake or smaller baler. I know which I'd choose!
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