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To spray or not to spary Rezilon on my Bermuda?


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#1 Ranger518

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Posted 25 January 2021 - 03:29 PM

So the last two years my stand of midland 99, as I have talked about before has started to thin out and not yielded as good as it has in the past with good soil samples and lots of fertilizer and last year I got crab grass pretty bad and unfortunately the crabgrass went to seed before I could get it cut on last cutting. I have been told several things to do and try like to not spray it with prowell h20 for a year and just use post herbicides do to prowell could be causing the stand to thin and to try running a pasture renovator over it to help on compaction and cut up the Bermuda and help it spread and see what happens. So I got a hay king type pasture renovator this winter I plan on using but I am afraid that if I don’t spray a pre herbicide I am going to have really really bad crabgrass issues this year but I also don’t want my stand to thin out more. What do you guys think I should do?

#2 weedman

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Posted 25 January 2021 - 11:37 PM

A couple of things:

1) When you say thin, what do you have?  50% coverage or more?

2) if you are going to run the renovator over it, do so before spraying Prowl or Rezilon.  If you do it after, you will break the herbicide barrier and the seed will germinate through it.

 

Legal POST herbicide options are limited and some will hurt bermuda also.  If it were me, I’d spray Rezilon in the next couple of weeks.  A heavy crabgrass stand will hurt the bermuda growth a lot more than a PRE will hold it back.  Full disclosure:  I developed Rezilon, so some may say I’m biased.    



#3 broadriverhay

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Posted 26 January 2021 - 06:07 AM

@ weedman. While we have your attention. If Rezilon is showing residual effects for 22 months I think it was stated. Why is it recommended to apply twice a year and how many consecutive years should we need to apply it. Several people have asked me this question. Also I applied Rezilon last year and I  have absolutely nothing green in my field. I plan on applying Rezilon in a few weeks. Would you recommend applying Glyphosate with the Rezilon to kill any plants that might be there that are too small to really see or not.



#4 Ranger518

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Posted 26 January 2021 - 07:34 AM

A couple of things:
1) When you say thin, what do you have?  50% coverage or more?
2) if you are going to run the renovator over it, do so before spraying Prowl or Rezilon.  If you do it after, you will break the herbicide barrier and the seed will germinate through it.
 
Legal POST herbicide options are limited and some will hurt bermuda also.  If it were me, I’d spray Rezilon in the next couple of weeks.  A heavy crabgrass stand will hurt the bermuda growth a lot more than a PRE will hold it back.  Full disclosure:  I developed Rezilon, so some may say I’m biased.


I would say I have 75% coverage or more no bare spots just not as thick as it once was and yields really show it. Yea I figured it would be best to spray it after I ran the pasture renovator over it which means I need to rip it soon. it was recommended to Rip it after the Bermuda has started to grow so it would cut it up and cause it to spread more thinking my stand but I know this would not be best as far as weed control. But do y’all thank ripping the field and spraying with relizon would still be best? As I know post herbicide on crab grass don’t do to well.

#5 somedevildawg

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Posted 26 January 2021 - 08:02 AM

I would say I have 75% coverage or more no bare spots just not as thick as it once was and yields really show it. Yea I figured it would be best to spray it after I ran the pasture renovator over it which means I need to rip it soon. it was recommended to Rip it after the Bermuda has started to grow so it would cut it up and cause it to spread more thinking my stand but I know this would not be best as far as weed control. But do y’all thank ripping the field and spraying with relizon would still be best? As I know post herbicide on crab grass don’t do to well.


You’re right they don’t.....
Is the crabgrass over the entire field? Most times it just concentrated in certain spots. I would do a controlled application just where I had problems in the past with CG. I wouldn’t run the renovator over that area at all....
Seems we’ve discussed this before but what are your samples showing? With most Bermuda fields thinning of the grass is usually a result of shallow roots and a deficiency of K......what about Ph? Repeated applications of An can really eat up your Ph....

#6 Ranger518

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Posted 26 January 2021 - 09:00 AM

You’re right they don’t.....
Is the crabgrass over the entire field? Most times it just concentrated in certain spots. I would do a controlled application just where I had problems in the past with CG. I wouldn’t run the renovator over that area at all....
Seems we’ve discussed this before but what are your samples showing? With most Bermuda fields thinning of the grass is usually a result of shallow roots and a deficiency of K......what about Ph? Repeated applications of An can really eat up your Ph....


Yea we have talked about it before. It is not really in one area of the field so spot spraying not really possible it is thicker in some areas though. My soil test show everything is in the optimal level as with a 6.9ph and last year I really fed the fertilizer to it which really did not improve it i even doubled up the Fertilizer application on about 2 acer to see what happened and from the time I fertilized it to the time I cut it about 4 weeks you could not tell the difference.
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#7 weedman

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Posted 26 January 2021 - 09:09 AM

@ weedman. While we have your attention. If Rezilon is showing residual effects for 22 months I think it was stated. Why is it recommended to apply twice a year and how many consecutive years should we need to apply it. Several people have asked me this question. Also I applied Rezilon last year and I  have absolutely nothing green in my field. I plan on applying Rezilon in a few weeks. Would you recommend applying Glyphosate with the Rezilon to kill any plants that might be there that are too small to really see or not.

I think that spraying for weed control, PRE or POST, is an every year activity.  In our minds, we think that if we control weeds 2-3 years in a row, that we should be lessening the population over time.  Unfortunately, seeds can live for many years in the soil, some species for several decades, and the seed bank is huge.  So I think this fight will be one we have to do every year. The residual for Rezilon is long, but the 22 month restriction on planting is from some work done on our crop side of the business (the corn, cotton, soybean folks).  There, they rotate to other crops, and some are especially sensitive to this chemistry, particularly cereals.  So, even a minor reduction for them is huge.  It is different for weed control, where we want to get good-excellent control of weeds.  From my experience, if you apply 3 oz of Rezilon in Feb, you will see good crabgrass control until about midsummer, when you will start to see some escapes (although control still may be acceptable, depending on your goals).  If you had put 5 out, you get crabgrass control most of the year and also can see a good reduction in ryegrass the next winter.  The program of 3 oz followed by another 3 oz in mid-late summer has shown to be the most consistent from year to year.  As to your situation, if you don't see any weeds out there, I don't think you need to put gly in with it. I wouldn't do anything to set the bermuda back if I didn't have to.  Just make sure and get it out early.  We say get it on before Valentines day, and i think that will hold true for where you are in SC also.


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#8 endrow

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Posted 26 January 2021 - 09:22 AM

If your stand is thin and you spray  Rezilon and you stand does not make it and you need to reseed , must you wait 22 months to reseed  



#9 weedman

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Posted 26 January 2021 - 09:28 AM

Ranger, last fall, one of the farmers I have been working with wanted to run the renovator over his field.  I suggested he do that before spraying last fall to target ryegrass.  So, he got his last cut, ran the renovator over the field, then sprayed his Rezilon about a week later after he had gotten a ran to settle the soil.  He did include 10 oz of Roundup as it was late September and ryegrass had begun to germinate.  That field is clean as it gets and I feel sure he accomplished his goal with the renovator. 

 

I think in your situation I would spray in the next few weeks, see how the field looks later this summer, then decide if you want to run the renovator through there or not.  At that point, you have gotten a couple of clean cuttings and the reduction in crabgrass should help the bermuda fill in without the competition.  Depending on whether you want to spray to control ryegrass or not, ripping later in the summer won't be an issue as you could do it, get a rain, then apply Rezilon if you choose to, similar to what the farmer here did.  There are several courses you can take, but i do think controlling the crabgrass should be up on the list of things to consider.



#10 weedman

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Posted 26 January 2021 - 09:41 AM

If your stand is thin and you spray  Rezilon and you stand does not make it and you need to reseed , must you wait 22 months to reseed  

Endrow, for you northern folks that are in that orchargrass, timothy, fescue type pasture, Rezilon is not labeled for use...yet.  I am doing a lot of work this year to see if we can come up with a treatment regime that works for weed control without too much injury on the grass.  Rezilon can be pretty tough on cool-season pastures with rates above about 2.5 oz.  I am hoping we can get it to work and give you another option other than Prowl. 

To your question, I will assume you mean reseeding in your area and not bermudagrass, which is primarily propagated vegetatively?  But yes, the 22 month restriction will hinder northern states using Rezilon.  That 22 months came from work our crop folks had done. As such, the only real data that was submitted to the epa for plantback and tolerance were crop species.  Because of the costs associated with this research, no further tolerance testing is planned, so we are stuck with what they already had done.  So, I can't tell you what the plantback interval after Rezilon application for fescue may be, for example, because the work hasn't been done.  Rezilon is very effective on controlling most cool-season grasses from seed, and I would think that trying to reseed a pasture that has been treated would have to wait at least 12-18 months before it may be possible.  Filling in with a clover may be possible, but that work is planned for this year also.



#11 Ranger518

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Posted 26 January 2021 - 10:00 AM

Ranger, last fall, one of the farmers I have been working with wanted to run the renovator over his field. I suggested he do that before spraying last fall to target ryegrass. So, he got his last cut, ran the renovator over the field, then sprayed his Rezilon about a week later after he had gotten a ran to settle the soil. He did include 10 oz of Roundup as it was late September and ryegrass had begun to germinate. That field is clean as it gets and I feel sure he accomplished his goal with the renovator.

I think in your situation I would spray in the next few weeks, see how the field looks later this summer, then decide if you want to run the renovator through there or not. At that point, you have gotten a couple of clean cuttings and the reduction in crabgrass should help the bermuda fill in without the competition. Depending on whether you want to spray to control ryegrass or not, ripping later in the summer won't be an issue as you could do it, get a rain, then apply Rezilon if you choose to, similar to what the farmer here did. There are several courses you can take, but i do think controlling the crabgrass should be up on the list of things to consider.


That’s it pretty much my thinking that I need to control the crabgrass first and hope that will help thicken up my stand and cause Bermuda to spread but I was just worried that the relizon works so good it just would not allow the Bermuda to take root and continue to spread do to torpedo affect but I don’t know.

#12 somedevildawg

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Posted 26 January 2021 - 09:04 PM

Yea we have talked about it before. It is not really in one area of the field so spot spraying not really possible it is thicker in some areas though. My soil test show everything is in the optimal level as with a 6.9ph and last year I really fed the fertilizer to it which really did not improve it i even doubled up the Fertilizer application on about 2 acer to see what happened and from the time I fertilized it to the time I cut it about 4 weeks you could not tell the difference.


I have no experience with the Midland variety....they used to make a good CB radio back In the day however :o. It is a hybrid variety right? We don’t see any of it down here......that’s really crazy that you couldn’t tell a difference...every BG I’ve ever been around responded to N like a crack addict......have you tested for AL in the depths of the soil? Unless it’s a really heavy infestation of CG, it seems doubtful that it’s would be out competeing the BG enuf to cause stand deterioration. Didn’t you post some pics?

#13 Ranger518

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Posted 27 January 2021 - 07:53 AM

I have no experience with the Midland variety....they used to make a good CB radio back In the day however :o. It is a hybrid variety right? We don’t see any of it down here......that’s really crazy that you couldn’t tell a difference...every BG I’ve ever been around responded to N like a crack addict......have you tested for AL in the depths of the soil? Unless it’s a really heavy infestation of CG, it seems doubtful that it’s would be out competeing the BG enuf to cause stand deterioration. Didn’t you post some pics?


Yes it is a hybrid yea i thought it was odd as well as in the past few years if I missed a spot or overlapped fertilizer you could tell for sure. I don’t think I had and good photos but i did take a video last summer but this was before the crabgrass got real bad. The video link is below.
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=0Wv8JdMskJg

#14 somedevildawg

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Posted 27 January 2021 - 08:06 AM

I think there is something else going on there, not quite sure what.....if the stand was already deteriorating before the crabgrass infiltrated, I don’t think that I would spray additional Pre emergent until I got that figured out.....AL would be my first guess, what was planted in years before this was sprigged? BG can really send some roots deep, I would test deeper....it looks a little like compaction problems too, but that’s a tough one to think the whole field is like that, typically it will show where you bottleneck at gates etc.....

#15 Ranger518

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Posted 27 January 2021 - 08:40 AM

I think there is something else going on there, not quite sure what.....if the stand was already deteriorating before the crabgrass infiltrated, I don’t think that I would spray additional Pre emergent until I got that figured out.....AL would be my first guess, what was planted in years before this was sprigged? BG can really send some roots deep, I would test deeper....it looks a little like compaction problems too, but that’s a tough one to think the whole field is like that, typically it will show where you bottleneck at gates etc.....


Yes it was thinning out and then the crabgrass started taking over kinda my concern that if I don’t spray a pre herbside that the crabgrass is just going to get worse but also if I spray it it will keep from spreading. What is the AL you talk about and what should it be? Here is my soil test from last year.

Attached Files



#16 Ranger518

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Posted 27 January 2021 - 09:01 AM

The more I think about it the more I am leaning towards compaction and this is why but it just a guess. This field has been precision leveled with about a 1” fall every 100’ draining into a ditch for flood irrigation which I don’t flood irrigate it I use a kifco water reel. The soil is really good sandy looney type but I found out that the land really does not perk so I am thinking that maybe when it rains being the land does not perk very well and had a slope built for flood irrigation that the water just runs off the field and maybe the reason it yielded so good the first and second year after being sprigged was do to having the ground disked up really well getting it prepared for Sprigging. Who know I may be totally wrong but either way I am going to run over it as soon as it stops raining with my pasture renovator I picked up last fall. Now I just got to figure out if I should spray pre emerge herbicide after that.

#17 somedevildawg

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Posted 27 January 2021 - 08:00 PM

Based on that report I wouldn’t say it was aluminum toxicity with a 6.9 ph, however, because the roots grow so deep, we often make the mistake of testing only the surface of the soil, to get a better indication, take a pair of post hole diggers and dig down 12-24” and then take some samples with probe just to rule that out, doesn’t cost a lot. But, given that report I think compaction could be a possibility. I did see some common in the field, is this hybrid a fine bladed grass? I only ask because my T44 seems to be more susceptible to compaction than my coastal, T85, Jiggs (all much coarser). Not sure if there is a correlation to be gleaned from that or not, probably so, I just ain’t smart enuf to glean it.....

#18 Ranger518

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Posted 27 January 2021 - 08:15 PM

Based on that report I wouldn’t say it was aluminum toxicity with a 6.9 ph, however, because the roots grow so deep, we often make the mistake of testing only the surface of the soil, to get a better indication, take a pair of post hole diggers and dig down 12-24” and then take some samples with probe just to rule that out, doesn’t cost a lot. But, given that report I think compaction could be a possibility. I did see some common in the field, is this hybrid a fine bladed grass? I only ask because my T44 seems to be more susceptible to compaction than my coastal, T85, Jiggs (all much coarser). Not sure if there is a correlation to be gleaned from that or not, probably so, I just ain’t smart enuf to glean it.....

Ok so if I understand It right AL toxicity is caused by low ph? And I’m thinking that you are thinking that maybe my PH is going to be lower deeper in the soil which could be causing my issues?
When I soil test I use a soil test probe but it only goes about 12” down I was getting ready to pull my soil test for this year so I will dig down deeper with a post hole digger first before I probe for a sample but with COVID going around they super slow getting samples back right now so it may be a month or longer before I get them back. The last time it was limed was about 5 years ago and the past 5 years my PH has been 6.6-6.9 every year so I have not worried spreading anymore lime. Midland 99 to me is real close to what tifton44 looks like.
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#19 somedevildawg

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Posted 27 January 2021 - 08:31 PM

Well, there ya go....maybe. Idk. You are correct, here BG roots can grow very deep. It’s a problem that the only remedy I know of is deep incorporation of lime to help leech out the AL. That’s a laborious, therefore expensive, remedy....but perhaps, maybe...disc the field with the pasture renovator (hay king?) with the coulters and shanks set as far down as they can, that ain’t real far, and incorporate lime.....I have no idea if that would help, but I would certainly think it was worth a shot, maybe more than once given the alternative :( but, that’s jumping to serious conclusions that may not be warranted.....iirc your fertilization schedules were very similar to mine with the exception of Lime applications. Used any manure for NPK?

#20 Ranger518

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Posted 27 January 2021 - 10:11 PM

Well, there ya go....maybe. Idk. You are correct, here BG roots can grow very deep. It’s a problem that the only remedy I know of is deep incorporation of lime to help leech out the AL. That’s a laborious, therefore expensive, remedy....but perhaps, maybe...disc the field with the pasture renovator (hay king?) with the coulters and shanks set as far down as they can, that ain’t real far, and incorporate lime.....I have no idea if that would help, but I would certainly think it was worth a shot, maybe more than once given the alternative :( but, that’s jumping to serious conclusions that may not be warranted.....iirc your fertilization schedules were very similar to mine with the exception of Lime applications. Used any manure for NPK?


No I have never used manure not any around here to get I use granular fertilizer mainly urea pot ash and dap.
So what do you think of this plan as of now. Take some deep soil samples and as soon as it dries out run my pasture renovator over it as deep as I can and then spray it with rezilon just to try and hold back the crabgrass giving the Bermuda the best chance it can have to grow without competition. Then see what the soil test show and go from there. I’m definitely open to all suggestions and recommendation.




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