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$15

4K views 41 replies 17 participants last post by  hillside hay 
#1 ·
Think about it.....can this country afford a minimum wage of $15 per hour? This will have far reaching effects....it could derail what small economic progress this country has made in the last two years. I do not believe the US citizens realize the full consequences of a national minimum wage of $15 per hour.....it will collapse many small businesses. Basically, you would be doubling or more the minimum wage for most states.

Regards, Mike

http://growingtennessee.com/features/2016/05/minimum-wage-increase-could-create-serious-challenges-agricultural-businesses/?utm_source=Growing+Tennessee&utm_campaign=42a5531fb1-growingtennessee-daily_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_d75710df8e-42a5531fb1-296641129
 
#2 ·
The ones I see around here that make minimum ain't worth the minimum of $7 or whatever the minimum is nowadays......I don't pay anyone the minimum, I figure if they're only worth minimum, I don't need them around my equipment. That being said, it would have a devastating effect on our economy as there are a lot of folks that ain't worth a damn and a lot of employers that take advantage of unskilled idiots....but then again, those that played in school and didn't have any intention of doing better for themselves......they pay the price, isn't that the way it should be? The problem as I see it is that folk born into poor socio-economic conditions seem to stay in poor economic conditions. That's why it's so important to strive to do your best early in life when the mind is most condusive to learning, soak it up like a sponge and make a better life for yourself.......sadly it's more like, piss on it and let the gummit give me a check......why not, they always gave momma one, every month of her life....course dad got one too, just not sure who he is.....
 
#3 ·
You're correct Vol, $15 sounds innocent to a lot of folks but there is a potential for a lot of bad things to happen. As you stated, businesses close; or businesses learn to do the same or more with less people. Prices for goods and services will rise and consequently $15 won't buy you anymore than the $7+ does now.

With folks losing jobs, that puts more burden on the government payroll (those of us that pay taxes) which could equate to higher taxes for the rest of us. We are in a global economy, if it will cost more for other countries to do business with the US then they will go elsewhere. You may not sell to countries overseas but you may sell to a company that does. If they lose business, you lose business. Only time will tell how all of this plays out so lets pray for the best!

But hey...it buys votes and if Hillary or Bernie get in office it will all be "free" and we may not even need a minimum wage...right?! ;) But that's a topic for another forum...
 
#4 ·
If and when a nation-wide minimum wage bill goes into effect and it's $15/hour, those earning it will be making about the same money their ancestors made back in the late 1960s - adjusted for inflation.

Yes, there's going to be a major adjustment (and pain & suffering) for many business owners. This is because is the minimum wage has severely lagged inflation for decades. Today, people work full time at Walmart and still qualify for food stamps! In other words, we (taxpayers) are effectively subsidizing the Walton family.

Gary
 
#6 ·
If and when a nation-wide minimum wage bill goes into effect and it's $15/hour, those earning it will be making about the same money their ancestors made back in the late 1960s - adjusted for inflation.
.

Gary
I have different data. Mine says that, in 1960, minimum wage was $1.00. The inflation calculator that I used puts $1 in 1960 as having the same worth as $8.08 in 2015 (2016 isn't over, so no inflation rate on the books yet)
...at least those are the figures using data at which I first looked.
73, Mark
 
#7 ·
It's not just giving Larry Flipaburger a raise thats gonna cost, so now he makes $15/hour with basically zero skills, how much do we have to raise the pay of those now making $15/hour since $15/hour is now the entry level wage? How much for those making 16, 17 or 18?
 
#8 ·
Something interesting a friend brings up, with increased automation someday there will simply be not enough jobs to go around no matter how well the economy is supposedly doing.

He calls it a basic income, at first sounded like nothing more than expanding welfare, however upon further research it replaces much of the current welfare, foodstamp, unemployment, and section 8 programs.

And the day is coming, a company in Europe had a convoy of trucks self drive from a port to a distribution center, each one still had a driver in case something went wrong, but they did self drive a considerable distance with zero issues. Won't be long before a bunch of farm labor will be obsolete, take your RTK auto steer tractor to the field, press the start button on your smart phone and come back to get it when it notifies you its done.

Anyways, back to basic income, everybody gets $12,000 (a number he just pulled out of thin air, $1000 a month for easy figuring) to do with what they please, wanna blow your monthly allotment on hookers, blow and tattoos fine, you won't eat or have a roof over your head till next month as food stamps and section 8 vouchers won't be available anymore.

Basic income replaces food stamps, WIC, section 8 vouchers, un employment, cash assistance and so on, eventually even social security. Part of it's paid for by already existing programs, another part by the savings in labor and administration costs when the welfare, un employment offices and other similar offices are closed and with those closings no more having to pay obscene government pensions to all those employees.

Everyone would receive it in order to reduce paperwork and administration costs, at the end of the year of course those that really didn't need it would pay either some or all back in their taxes, but those that don't need could invest that money in a money market account for a year and keep the interest.

This has been tried in other countries, was almost passed here back in the 70's and surprisingly enough (and I looked the studies up myself) when these experiments were held the people receiving the money actually bettered themselves by getting cleaned up, off the streets and finding jobs, or they used the money to further their education or even started their own business.

Personally it surprised the hell out of me, as I figured it would fail miserably as the only people it would help were the drug dealers, prostitutes and tattoo parlors.

An experiment which will soon be conducted in Kenya instead of taking donations and giving people food, shelter and medical care they will instead give the money directly to those in need.

We've had some pretty interesting conversations on this as with all the money spent on the war on poverty, it's an abysmal failure.
 
#9 ·
Marty nailed it. There are plenty of blue collar tradesman that start out right out of school in the $16-$19/hr. If no skills druggie makes $15/hr Joe in trade school needs to make $20+ an hr when he gets out of school. If Joe makes $20 as a new tradesman whats his boss John need to make for all his years of experience.

We have basically just boosted everyone's income, but also everyone's cost of living will also rise, just for the sake of helping the unskilled minimum wage employee.

Lets not forget that now that everyone's income is higher more total dollars will be taken for taxes, while the minimum wage employee will still be eligible for free handouts since they make the minimum...I can guarantee the gov wont phase out assistance even though minimum wage went from $7 to $15...
 
#11 · (Edited by Moderator)
A while back, I wrote a post that the sure-cure for the Social Security problem and the Deficit is inflation. A LOT of money is now invested in US government bonds. Much of that is now floated at REAL cheap interest rates

Now, $15 minimum wage turns on the inflation engine.

But, there is no inflation because the cost of food and energy are now longer in the CPI calculations.

So, the debts are paid down, the SS problem goes away with cheap dollars, and most importantly, NO ONE IS TO BLAME!

It's a win-win solution for the pols. We all lose, but most people won't know what train hit them.

Ralph

Glad I'll be senile (or at least I'll fool most people) in a few years.
 
#12 · (Edited by Moderator)
A while, I wrote a post that the sure-cure for the Social Security problem and the Deficit is inflation. A LOT of money is now invested in US government bonds. Much of that is now floated at REAL cheap interest rates

Now, $15 minimum wage turns on the inflation engine.

But, there is no inflation because the cost of food and energy are now longer in the CPI calculations.

So, the debts are paid down, the SS problem goes away with cheap dollars, and most importantly, NO ONE IS TO BLAME!

It's a win-win solution for the pols. We all lose, but most people won't know what train hit them.

Ralph

Glad I'll be senile (or at least I'll fool most people) in a few years.
And its incredibly easy to fool people with big numbers, some are even fooled with little numbers.

If the un employment rate is truly around 5% then how is that even possible with the labor participation rate being the lowest it's been in decades?

We have fewer people working in decades, fewer are paying taxes, yet the fewest in decades are actually working.

Makes perfect sense to me.
 
#13 ·
Marty nailed it. There are plenty of blue collar tradesman that start out right out of school in the $16-$19/hr. If no skills druggie makes $15/hr Joe in trade school needs to make $20+ an hr when he gets out of school. If Joe makes $20 as a new tradesman whats his boss John need to make for all his years of experience.
We have basically just boosted everyone's income, but also everyone's cost of living will also rise, just for the sake of helping the unskilled minimum wage employee.
Lets not forget that now that everyone's income is higher more total dollars will be taken for taxes, while the minimum wage employee will still be eligible for free handouts since they make the minimum...I can guarantee the gov wont phase out assistance even though minimum wage went from $7 to $15...
It is not going to push their wage up. Just make them worth less.

Just like free college for all. If everyone had a degree, it would not be worth anything. We aren't far from that now. But not too long ago a college degree was actually worth something.
 
#14 ·
Unemployment numbers are based off of people actively seeking employment. If you chose to not work you aren't considered unemployed. So basically the gov can make the freebies that good that more people decide to live off the system than search for a job...Guess what, "unemployment" goes down even though more people are unemployed...
 
#16 · (Edited by Moderator)
Yes, there's going to be a major adjustment (and pain & suffering) for many business owners. This is because is the minimum wage has severely lagged inflation for decades. Today, people work full time at Walmart and still qualify for food stamps! In other words, we (taxpayers) are effectively subsidizing the Walton family.

Ain't that the truth......in more ways than one, they also hire workers that qualify under gov rules for special treatment, or incentives ;)
 
#17 ·
It's not just giving Larry Flipaburger a raise thats gonna cost, so now he makes $15/hour with basically zero skills, how much do we have to raise the pay of those now making $15/hour since $15/hour is now the entry level wage? How much for those making 16, 17 or 18?
Exactly...

I remember a call on a radio show a couple years ago with all the brou-ha-ha over the "living wage" garbage when folks were saying the patty flippers should be making $15 bucks an hour.

This cop called in and basically said he was making about $15 bucks an hour to go out and put his ass (and life) on the line EVERY NIGHT. He said that if he could make $15 bucks an hour farting around in some burger joint, safe and sound, WHY would he *ever* go out and risk his life and limb as a cop??

Good question! I think there's a LOT of jobs that would fall into that category. I know I was making $14 bucks and change driving a school bus-- NO WAY IN HELL would I do that again if I could make the same money being a flunky at TSC or some burger joint.

All I see this doing is ratcheting the price of everything up and causing a lot of upheaval, and ending up with a lot of "near worthless" people now getting a mediocre paycheck being tossed out on their ear. Service will get even crappier and most of the "low end" type service jobs (like patty flippers) will disappear. Hope you like waiting in line for an hour for your order at the burger joint instead of 10 minutes.

Besides, NO idiot that can't even put the damn fries in the bag is worth $15 bucks an hour! LOL:)

Water seeks its own level. The gubmint can "level the playing field" all it wants, but people will find a way to make it work to their advantage in the end.

Later! OL J R :)
 
#18 ·
#19 ·
Karen worked in a group home and as they raised the starting wage to try to get help the ones that had been there for yrs didn't get much of a raise because they had X amount of dollars to work with.So the new hired was making within .50 a hr as someone that had been there 15 yrs.So people that switch jobs every few months,some fired,etc should start at $15,thats BS

So,if they raise the minimum to $15 the $$ have to come from somewhere so if state funded we will pay more taxes or for privately owned health care the rates will just go up for everyone.

If anyone deserves 15 its people working in health care not the burger flippers.
 
#20 ·
I am sure that once minimum wage is raised all those employees will now quit drugs, get a good nights sleep, show up on time, pay attention and learn, and be a valuable employee...after all they are now making $15/hr.....oh wait... I have it in reverse...you do all those things and you prove you are worth something, then you get a raise or a better job...
 
#21 ·
At the end of the day, the value of your output must exceed the value of your wages. When it doesn't, employers are either going to find new ways to wring more widgets out of your butt or start chopping costs. Those who advocate for raising the minimum wage have never had to make a payroll in their life. They need to listen to those of us who do it on a routine basis.
 
#22 ·
The other interesting thing will be how many jobs will be eliminated. If every clerk at McDonalds makes $15/hr you better believe they will come out with some self serve automated computer ordering system to eliminate labor...

In my day job we build automation equipment for the food production industry. Often the equipment eliminates repetitive manual labor. Many of our customers want pay back of the equipment in 2 years or less. Depending on their available labor supply and costs some customers wont spend the money on automation. Easier to just hire low skill workers at $10/hr. If their labor rate jumps to $15/hr you better believe they will eliminate some of those jobs with automation...
 
#23 ·
Before I would get too lippy one way or the other I would like to see the effects of the higher minimum wage in the cities of Portland and Seattle where they already enacted them. And another point putting down fast food workers is kind of childish. Like a businessman putting down a construction worker. From what I see in my area under the Obama economy there are increasing numbers of middle aged folk working those jobs. I assume displaced from a skilled labor job that doesn't exist. I'm not saying that in any effort to be pro 15$, I just think on a basic human level putting down fast food workers is not necessary. How much would McDonald's have to pay you to get you to show up, it would be kind of embarrassing wouldn't it?
 
#24 · (Edited by Moderator)
The other interesting thing will be how many jobs will be eliminated. If every clerk at McDonalds makes $15/hr you better believe they will come out with some self serve automated computer ordering system to eliminate labor...
In my day job we build automation equipment for the food production industry. Often the equipment eliminates repetitive manual labor. Many of our customers want pay back of the equipment in 2 years or less. Depending on their available labor supply and costs some customers wont spend the money on automation. Easier to just hire low skill workers at $10/hr. If their labor rate jumps to $15/hr you better believe they will eliminate some of those jobs with automation...
It's already happening. Go into a Wendy's and you'll see they have a self serve machine for soft drinks. I actually like it better because it dispenses more variety and there's less chance of me getting sick from an employee with dirty hands serving me my drink. And I can keep topping off my drink, or change favors altogether. :)
Another much bigger version is on line banking. Banks actually PAY you to use it. When you get a check, you can scan it in your office and its deposited. A real time/money saver for both. How about the new credit card readers for smart phones? I see a day where you will be charged for banking with a human teller.

Go ahead, push those wages higher....push the Obama care. It'll only raise the cost to hire employees. The ones who pushed it will find there's more unemployment and more technology invented to replace the human employee
 
#26 ·
PaMike I have no issues with anything you have said. "Larry mcburgerflipper" was the phrase that caught my attention. A quite a bit condescending in my opinion. Years ago I worked as a Pepsi delivery driver. I got to know a lot of different people between the grocery and convenience stores where I delivered. For the most part these people are descent and are in difficult/different situations.

As far as the theory that these people will just be replaced by machines like self-service kiosks I somewhat disagree. They have them at home depot and Wal-Mart and they seem to get limited usage. I will say that increasing wages will increase costs. How much?? I was thinking about this while eating at a McDonald's a year ago or so. Just from watching the foot traffic and looking at the number of employees. If you cut the customer number in half you would have to raise the price of their burger and fries with a drink by a whopping dollar. I believe the numbers I remember being researched and reported at the time was like 37 cents. Not really earth shattering.
 
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